Behind-the-Scenes: Rebalancing Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix (part 2, Ryu)
November 12th, 2007 Seth Killian
If you think our redesign team has messed with a masterpiece, the game’s original mode is also included. Although “original” mode also features the HD art, original mode has NO changes to any of the characters. All of their move properties and hitboxes are exactly as they were, down to the pixel! This basically means you have two games in one, and if you don’t like the new-fangled version, the old-school version is still there.
Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix Gameplay, Part 2: Ryu
Ryu’s change list is unusual, so let’s start with him. He’s the central character in Street Fighter, both in the story and the game mechanics of fireball/uppercut. In ST, he’s not especially powerful (no one ranks him as top tier), and yet in the hands of an expert he is able to win tournaments. He’s pretty balanced as he is.
I asked tournament player John Choi to give me a complete list of Ryu changes that he requested. Choi is, I think, the #1 Ryu player in the US (check out his crushing victory at Evolution West 2007, among others [editor’s note: HERE is one of those matches from Choi]). Choi contemplated this for weeks and finally came up with his complete list: 1) add a fake fireball, and 2) no other changes.
This was not what I expected, but I immediately liked it. Ryu already has the tools he needs to win, so he doesn’t really need much of a change to win. Choi’s original reasoning for the fake fireball was to give him an answer to Dhalsim’s drills. Dhalsim can drill Ryu on reaction when he sees a fireball, but a fake would trick Dhalsim into committing, then Ryu would recover from the fake and be able to Dragon Punch.
That use of the fake fireball sounds fine, but what’s even better is that is addressed a larger problem, too. In this new game, many characters are more able to get around fireballs than before. This is a delicate thing, so don’t misunderstand me. If we have a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is the effectiveness of fireballs in Super Turbo and 1 is the effectiveness in SF3: 3rd Strike, I’m shooting for an 8. A lot of the non-fireball characters have pretty bad matches in ST, and they need a little help, but we still want fireballs to be strong. We *especially* want fireballs to still be strong for Ryu, the star character.
As soon as I heard the idea for the fake fireball, I realized it was not only what Ryu wanted in ST, but it’s what he needed in HD Remix. Even if other characters now have ways out of fireball traps that they previously didn’t, Ryu would still be able to trap them by tricking them with fakes. You might wonder if this is any better of a situation than in original Super Turbo. After all, I’m saying Ryu can fireball trap a lot of characters in both games, so what’s changed? What’s changed is that there is now a lot more of a mind-game on both sides of those fights. Ryu *still* has the tools to fireball trap Bison, Honda, Fei Long, etc., but now each player must get into the other’s head to escape the trap or keep it going. It’s great stuff.
Before implementing this, I also talked to Nekohashi, one of the best Ryu players in Japan. I asked him for his list of Ryu changes for a new version of Street Fighter and his response was something close to “No changes needed, Ryu’s design is already perfect.” I said ok, but how about this idea of adding just one thing: a fake fireball? Nekohashi said, “Yes! That is a masterpiece. Give him that move and nothing else.” I think Nekohashi probably had similar reasoning to mine above, because I had already explained to him a few ways that various weaker characters would have to avoid fireballs.
With Nekohashi’s blessing, we finally added this move to the game. I know it makes a better story when things turn out totally differently than you expect, but the fake fireball turned out exactly as we expected, at least so far. It really does add an interesting mind-game to a lot of fights. It also has another use as a rushdown tool, such as cancelling low roundhouse or low fierce into a fake fireball, then quickly throwing the opponent. This technique actually lets you recover slightly faster than if you did low roundhouse or low fierce alone, and also the visuals trick the opponent into blocking, so it’s an effective technique. I think it’s not overly powerful though, but we’ll continue to test it and keep an eye on this.
The command for fake fireball is qcf + short. Ryu players tend to fake with short anyway, so this was a natural place for it. Also, putting it only on short kick ensures that you will never ever accidentally get the move when (on button up) you try to do low medium kick or low roundhouse into a real fireball.
So there we have it. The first character change list I’m presenting to you is unusually short: only one item long! But it’s quite an item with power that ripples through a lot of matches.
—Sirlin
Here’s a brief bio on our guest blogger:
David Sirlin has competed in Street Fighter tournaments for 16 years, and for 11 years he has helped organize and run the tournament series that started as B3 and has now become the international Evolution Championships. He represented the United States in SSF2T in Japan’s Super Battle Opera tournament, wrote the competitive gaming book Playing to Win, and provided narration for Bang the Machine, a documentary film about the Street Fighter community. He’s now overseeing the design and gameplay on Super Street Fighter 2: HD Remix.
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Soooooooo… how are weaker characters going to avoid fireballs now?
Btw, this is posted under Puzzle Fighter, not SSF2THD.
What’s going to be the fake fireball recover time compared to the regular one?
Nice entry Sirlin… Looking forward to more reports for the other characters.
I’m really looking forward to the game as I am a big fan of ST and I am also curious to how the rebalanced mode will play competitively.
[…] behind the scenes of Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix to give us a better look at how they’re fine-tuning the game to make it more […]
Hey, just one ideia! The color of the backgrounds could be different in original and remixed modes! Like different colors in the lights in Balrog´s stage or different day time in Ken´s or Cammy´s stage!
Awesome idea (changing background colors according to game mode)! That would give the game a whole new feeling! We don’t have new background color schemes since Super, if I am not wrong
About the Ryu design change, I think this one will be just fine. It’s a dream to think that, almost 14 years later, my favorite game will be re-released with new graphics, slightly new character designs and, who knows, new moves and background colors! That would be GREAT! Just imagine Guile’s stage (just like Hyper Fighting) and T. Hawk’s stage (a brand new reading of it) in the middle of a sunset!
Can’t wait to play it.
It’s fantastic that you’re getting the input from elite SF experts for the remix. I myself am a Blanka player, so of course I’d like to see him brought up from the bottom tier.
[…] of 128 Behind-the-Scenes: Rebalancing Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix (part 2, Ryu) Capcom US - The Blog
You forgot to mention, in rebalanced mode Ryu will also have 2 noses.
nice!
So, like you mentioned last time, since this is really now a totally new version of SF2, have you considered changing the name to something…less obtuse?
What motion are you going to make his fake fireball? It’s QCF + Taunt in the other games it’s in, but QCF + K seems like it would be better because it’s easier to reach and your opponent wouldn’t see you reaching over to hit Taunt.
I’m curious what the motion for the fake is gonna be too. Ryu is probably my favorite character and I’m a little worried about this. If the motion is hcf + kick for example this could make doing low forward, super fireball combos difficult, because I think the fake fireball will have a tendency to accidentally come out ahead of the super. Kind of like when Ken players get low foward, hcf-kick combos instead of low forward, fireball combos. Just simple letting go of the kick button adds that, sometimes annoying, input to cause the wrong move to come out ahead of the fireball. The only way I see this fake fireball move helping Ryu, is if the motion is set to be hcb + any punch. That way it really wouldn’t interfere with anything.
I like that the fake is mapped to low short only!
The only other thing I might have done to Ryu, would be to improve his rush punch and make it a bit more fluid. Or maybe even have it go slightly farther.
The command for the fake fireball is qcf + short kick (aka “fireball motion with short kick”). This is mentioned in the article but for some reason the last two paragraphs seem to have been cut off in the initial posting. The current post has the full article, including this command, but good thinking to all who suggested the same command we actually used for good reasons
I am a little dissapointed with the move that Ryu gets for the HD version of ST. Seriously, a fake fireball? Last time I heard nobody is even scared of the REAL fireball. I also note from the phone webcam video of ST HD in Youtube that the fake fireball does not even include Ryu’s voicebox of saying “Hadouken!”. My argument is how the heck people will fall for that trick if Ryu does not even say the move’s name? It doesn’t matter if it recovers faster than the real hadouken because people will just go forward and kick Ryu in the nuts (as they are aware that the fake hadouken is performed) Also, fake fireball in Alpha 3 has got to be one of the worst moves ever put, and I haven’t seen anybody use it to its supposed “potential.” Look, I know I’m bitching right now, but hear me for what it is I am trying to say. I request that Ryu says “hadouken!” when he performs the fake hadouken so it looks and sounds very similar to the real hadouken. This will in effect make the fake hadouken effective instead of another useless move that will ruin the short button.
Also why the hell Ken gets so many “old” stuff back and poor Ryu was left with a soundless fake hadouken? I thought it’s Ryu who said “You Must Defeat Sheng Long (or Dragon Punch) to Stand a Chance” not Ken!!! Don’t you remember back in HF where Ryu was not afraid to take Ken in a close range fight? Give him a proper Dragon Punch priority and not the nerfed ST Ryu’s DP. Ryu really needs it to fight the big 5 top tiers (Sagat, Dhalsim, Chun, Vega, Balrog).
lil dissapointed>>>
AGREED!
Please make at least one of RYU’s dragon punches have the priority from SF2T. I’ve pretty much played RYU exclusivly in every SF game since 1990 and even have an SF2T machine prominetly displayed in my home and I can say that SSF2 and SSF2T were completly frustrating games to play with RYU’s nerfed dragon punch. After reading the Ken upgrade with the improved jab and short dragon punch prioites please equally improve the prioites of at least one of RYU’s dragon punches.
Please, I’m begging here!
Thanks,
Anthony
AGREED!
Please make at least one of RYU’s dragon punches have the priority from SF2T. I’ve pretty much played RYU exclusivly in every SF game since 1990 and even have an SF2T machine prominetly displayed in my home and I can say that SSF2 and SSF2T were completly frustrating games to play with RYU’s nerfed dragon punch. After reading the Ken upgrade with the improved jab and short dragon punch prioites please equally improve the prioites of at least one of RYU’s dragon punches.
Please — I’m begging here!
Thanks,
Anthony
>>lil dissapointed
Completely AGREED!
Please make at least one of RYU’s dragon punches have the priority from SF2T. I’ve pretty much played RYU exclusively in every SF game since 1990 and even have an SF2T machine prominetly displayed in my home and I can say that SSF2 and SSF2T were completely frustrating fames to play with RYU’s nerfed dragon punch. After reading the Ken upgrade with the improved jab and short dragon punch priorities please equally improve the priorities of at least one of RYU’s dragon punches.
I can’t even fathom playing as ken just to get a non-nerfed dragon punch….
Please, I really want to love this game, give me RYU a decent dragon punch too.
Thanks,
Anthony
You know Sirlin I think Ryu should be left alone and not have a fake fire ball this makes way him too strong now. On XBLA I fight him 90% of the time and with a fake it will be 99%. Now when Ryu knocks u down he’s going 2 low kick fake FB throw u or low kick real FB and u get hit that is so dumb. Ryu is not mid tier I have seen him beat you Sirlin and others to win tournaments plenty of times he’s top tier almost all noobs use him and it gets boring 2 fight him all the time. Whats the point of givin characters new ways to get around fire balls and then defeat the perpose of that by giving him a fake and nerfing all the new moves u added u should have just left the game alone then. Only pros know how to use “top tier” characters like Balrog, Dhalsim, Vega or Chun Li 95% of XBLA peps could not win with them if they’re life depended on it I’ve been playin ST for 13 yrs and I get my but kicked with them all the time by a ryu player. RYU IS ALREADY THE BEST & MOST USED CHARACTER DONT GIVE HIM A FAKE PLZ
I am sure the article refered to qcf+short kick but for some reason I can’t read it anywhere.
If the case were the opposite it would cripple the strategy of slow fireball followed by fast fireball used at the “cage” or in the corner as US players name that part of the screen.
slow-fast fireballs is part of the “dance” from 10 years ago in at least all latinamerican players of that time. Being able to corner in order to force the opponent to “slide” or jump is just the way that region of the planet plays.
so I am sure it was just qcf+shortkick.