Behind-the-Scenes: Rebalancing Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix (part 9, Fei Long)
April 4th, 2008 Seth Killian
This is part nine in an extended series of articles from David Sirlin, detailing the changes we’ve made to the rebalanced mode of the new Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix project. The previous articles can be found here. This week focuses on the character so cliched that he stands out even among a strong field of cliche contenders: Hitenryu kung-fu master Fei Long!
Balancing Fei has been a long and rocky road, so this is a long entry, but it’s also a ton of fun for Fei Long fans and game design nerds alike. Read on!
Part 9: Fei Long
Fei Long is usually considered one of the five worst characters in the original Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, but he’s still pretty deadly if he can get close to the opponent and get his offense going. The trouble is, it’s very hard for him to ever get close enough to most characters to get it going. Also, his Flying Kicks move (aka Dragon Kicks, aka “Chicken Wing”) is just too hard for most players (including myself) to physically execute. Unlike the other Tiger Knee-like moves, the Flying Kicks required you to start with *back* on the stick, then go down/back, down, down/forward, forward, up/forward + kick.
Fei Long, Version 1
In HD Remix, Fei Long, along with Akuma, have the notorious distinction of each being the best character in the game and the worst character in the game at various points throughout development. The changelist for HD Remix, version 1 was:
• Flying Kick move changed to qcf+k (easy!)
• Flying Kick with short button can go through fireballs during startup.
The control change immediately made him fun, and being able to do short Flying Kicks over fireballs easily seemed like just what he needed. Unfortunately, the rest of the cast was just too powerful relative to this. Fei Long seemed like the worst character, or close to it.
Fei Long, Version 2
Then came a ridiculous number of buffs. I was going to make Fei Long viable, damn it!
• All three version of Flying Kicks can go through fireballs at startup.
• All Rekka punches (qcf+p) travel farther.
• Super travels much farther, which also makes it safer on block because last hit doesn’t whiff so much
And this ease of use stuff:
• Flame Kick input window is bigger (easier) and not random
• Medium and roundhouse Flame Kicks always knock down and can juggle.
• Input window for second and third Rekka punches longer and not random.
Expert players who played this version said Fei Long was unquestionably #1. His Flying Kicks were too good at locking opponents down. Like in ST, they can combo in standing fierce, then all three Rekka punches. Ouch! His super became the best in the game and you could even juggle with a Flame Kick afterwards for a total of 90% damage. (Oops!) Also, you could get about 3 supers per round if you tried. You could also juggle Flame Kicks after Flying Kicks due to…well some technical stuff we won’t go into right now. And to top it all off, Fei Long could pretty much ignore fireballs and do the new qcf+k command to go through them on reaction, every time.
Incidentally, a lot of people requested that he be able to cancel his ducking medium kick into Rekka punches, but that is really the last thing he needs, as I hope you can see by now. Giving him that would be similar to SF3:3rd Strike Chun Li’s ducking medium kick into super. She can stick it out constantly and if it happens to hit, bam, super. In Fei Long’s case, he wouldn’t even need super meter to deal huge damage off his 3-Rekka series. What we need to do at this point is turn the knobs DOWN on Fei Long.
Fei Long, Version 3 (a.k.a version 20)
This is really more like Fei Long version 20 than version 3, but I’m compressing the story for readability. He’s now settled down into seemingly fair state.
Here’s the actual change list:
• Flying Kick move changed to qcf+k (easy!)
• Flying Kick with short button can go through fireballs during startup.
• Flying Kicks have 5 additional frames of recovery. This prevents you from comboing if you hit, and it also prevents you from trapping people by doing the move repeatedly.
• Flying Kicks have worse priority air-to-air during the first hit, so it’s easier to counter them with a jumping attack if you predict them.
• All version of Flame Kicks always knock down and can juggle. They *can* still juggle after you juggle with Flying Kicks, so have fun, combo-maniacs.
• Flame Kick input window is bigger (easier) and not random
• Rekka punch input window is bigger (easier) and not random
• Rekka punches travel a little farther, but not as far as in Version 2
• Super travels farther and faster (by a lot) but not as much as Version 2
• Super is now vulnerable at Fei Long’s head during 4th and 5th hits
• Super meter gains reduced on Flame Kicks and Flying Kicks
• Super knocks the opponent down too quickly for a Flame Kick to combo after
The farther reach on Rekka punches allows Fei Long to actually deal some block damage vs a defensive Honda. It also makes it a little easier to pressure a defensive Guile who mostly just sits there and does low forward and the occasional sonic boom. (Both of those matches are still hard for Fei Long though).
The Flying Kicks are easy to perform now, and still have many uses, but they cannot really be abused like they could in some situations before. The recovery time at the end prevents you from constantly looping Flying Kicks -> Fierce -> Flying Kicks, etc. I don’t want to give the impression this move is weak though. It still has 14 frames of invulnerable startup, it still juggles and travels in a useful arc, and it’s still an overhead attack (must be blocked high).
The short Flying Kick going through fireballs is a help, but not a total solution. The opponent can still back up and sweep you if he predicts this move, especially with extra recovery. But it’s at least one option to get around fireballs, rather than practically no option, as he had before. I think it was a real mistake when I let all three versions of this move go through fireballs on startup, because even if it were somehow fair, it goes too far in negating the power of projectiles in Super Turbo. It just felt wrong.
The super move is very useful and a key move for Fei Long now. To balance that out, he can no longer get so many per round and if the opponent does predict it and jump over you, he has at least some hope of hitting you back (for example, with Ken’s new longer-reaching Hurricane Kick from behind!).
Fei Long is much more fun now, partly because executing all his moves is easier, and partly because he’s generally juiced up. Longer reaching Rekkas and a longer reaching super give him even more offense, while the new short Flying Kick gives him a mild new way to get in.
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This game needs to come out already. =) The more I hear about it the more I can’t wait to jump online and have some fun.
The only thing that would make this better?
Announce a PlayStation Portable version is being developed. You already have all of the assets/artwork necessary to do it (just resize it) and you’ve done the heavy lifting of getting the game to work in a 16:9 display (same aspect ratio as the PSP screen). And I’d like to think the processor in the PSP could handle the same Dreamcast code that’s been used for this PSN/XBLA version (we’re not talking about some ultra advanced 3D fighter here).
C’mon Capcom, I need me some SSF2T portable loving. =)
Don’t get me wrong: keep these blog posts coming. They’ll tide me over until the game is finally released.
Fei Long is one of my fav characters in ST, I know he’s definately on the bottom rungs, but I always through Shien Kyaku looked cooler then SRKs.
If Sirlin ever worked on balancing Alpha 3, I wonder why type of changes he’d make to GUY and CODY.
^^ actually that would make it worse. PSP is too inferior in screen size, controls, and other things to really do this game justice. Sony really should have
never made the psp. but of course they will milk
whatever they can.
Besides HD Remix’s budget has already gone over the
limit. Maybe after they make good sales from it they
might consider offering a collector’s edition down the
road, but even that disc is better served on consoles.
PSP screen is 480×272 (16:9), and I don’t see how the controls could be any better than they are now. It’s not like the Nintendo DS would do this justice…
Also, I wasn’t saying they should put it out on UMD: maybe you just didn’t know this, but the PSP has downloadable content as well, and it should be easy enough to release this on PSN for a decent price ($10-15? — personally I’d pay up to $25 if it played well and didn’t have many/any glitches).
As you say, HD Remixes budget has already gone over the limit: compiling a release for the PSP using the existing assets would seem like a reasonable way to recoup that added budget with little effort.
To Will: about PSP they’re over budget now and I don’t know if you know his or not but the PSP has been hacked all most all my friends don’t buy PSP games they DL them for free off the internet Saner knows about it and he’s probably got a HACKED PSP TOO.
To Capcom: I know how u feel Sirlin about not making characters fair becuz it would kind of mess up ST so many people use Ryu and Ken they be like OMG WTF my FB BS dont work anymore I’m goin to cry cuz that the only way I know how to play. I know you pros think Balrog and Dhalsim are the best but most of us nonpros just like to throw FBs wit shotos anyway I like everything I know it would be way diffrent but I wanted to see Fei Long’s flame kick change to a Dragon Punch motion cuz then we could keep forward pressure and whip it out like the shotos if there’s any pros to having the flame kick motion the way it is now someone plz inlightin me
P.S. Sirlin I’m good at ST but not a pro like u I don’t know what short & stuff means is it MP or MK could use wording like HP,HK,MP,MK,LP,LK it’s more easy for me to understand
That doesn’t mean you simply ignore the large installed base of PSP owners. I’d be willing to guess that a lot of PSP owners run normal firmware and don’t know it can be hacked (or don’t plan to if they do).
About your “short” question, read here. I’ll summarize: the kicks go “short”, “forward” and “roundhouse”. The punches go “jab”, “strong” and then “fierce”. So “short” is “LK” using your wording.
Agreed about changing the flaming kick to a dragon punch motion, although if you screwed it up you’d go into a flying kick accidentally, so maybe it’s better it stays how it is.
About someone’s thought of changing fei long’s flame kick motion to normal DP motion, that is not a good idea.
One good thing about the reverse DP motion of the flame kick is that it can be use to option select when used with negative edge. Let say you getting up. You can do a reversal flame kick with negative edge. That way, if you miss time the flame kick, you’ll end up in crouch block and no move comes out. This is very safe. If you didn’t miss time, you’ll get a reversal flame kick. This is a very useful trick and not many characters in the game have advantage like that.
The PSP isn’t anything even approaching HD, the game is called HD remix. Come on man!
P.S. Unnerf one of RYU’s … you know.
No, the PSP is not HD. But it’s above the resolution used in the original arcade game (320×240; the PSP is 480×270). So it would benefit from the higher resolution artwork. Likewise, the PSP has audio capabilities beyond what the CPS2 motherboard used for Super Street Fighter II Turbo was capable of, specifically the PSP is capable of CD quality digital audio.
But yes, if released on the PSP, it would likely be “Super Street Fighter II Turbo Remix“…
You Know Sirlin I wz thinkin havin MK flyin Kick that go tho FBs don’t do much good cuz most Xbox control users only have 4 buttons to work wit and we mostly use HP,HK,LP,LK (the triggers are useless in fighting games) so could u make LK go tho FBs too OR BETTER YET could there be a mode in the game to save control schemes so lets say ur usin Ryu u got r Ryu scheme but ur fighting online and you say now I want to use Fei Long u just which to ur shceme for him becuz on a Xbox control u got to prioritize ur HP,HK,MP,MK,LP,LK cuz u only have 4 sensible buttons to use on that dam Xbox control
How fast is a frame? I don’t know how long “5 addition frames of recovery” is, for example.
It’s generally accepted to be 1/60th of a second.
@duggie
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I can give you enough info to figure it out. You have to know what framerate the game is using. Lets assume 60 fps, then 5 frames would take 5/60, or 1/12th of a second to execute. Which is insanely fast, so you don’t render a frame of animation on each screen update, you delay, and only do an animation frame on say every 10th frame, so now each “animation frame” is on every 10th update, or 1/6th of a second, so now 5 frames takes 5/6th of a second, which is kinda slow but you get the idea. You’d need to find out what framerate HD remix runs at, and what interval those frames are being executed at for that move to get the execution time.
@Will
While seeing a PSP version sounds cool, I don’t see it happening, they’ve built this version for a high definition format, downscaling every single piece of artwork for the PSP and porting the code is a big job. Maybe hope for remote play support.
No plans for PSP at the moment, but buy two copies on PS3/360 and maybe we’ll have NO CHOICE but to continue with cross-platform releases.
If I had a 360, I’d probably buy it on that too. =)
Interesting read on Fei Long. He definitely needed help vs Honda and Guile (and old Sagat and Balrog). I am a huge diehard fan of his, so now I have one bit of beef. Why nerf the flying kicks recovery? Was it because of the invulnerable start up on the short version being too good? Because if I understand, it sounds like you were saying his offense with the flying kicks was too good vs certain characters even in super turbo. Was it really? I only had one friend that complained about them, and he was just a little slow on response times (reflexes). Other than that, I found their priority to be balanced and mostly effective against someone who was overly defensive and kinda slow (my one friend).
Fei Long’s main threat with the kicks was the scare factor of the big combo… so I’m still scratching my head at all these nerfs.
By the way… how does he deal with Dhalsim and Old Sagat, his other two near impossible matchups? Does the new super somehow make up for the problems?
One more thing - what about more invulnerability/hitability on the flame kicks, similar to the buff Sagat, Ryu, and Ken got?
Well, you have been doing a good job with the other characters, so maybe the increased range on the Rekkas and the new improved super make him so good he doesn’t need his kicks. I’m not sure I see it but I hope so, because I would really like a chance to play him and win vs those old near-impossible match ups.
Can’t wait to get my hands on this game!
Thoughts varied on the flying kick recovery, but one of the overall themes that has emerged is a de-emphasis on instant death situations with a corresponding increase in overall opportunities.
So instead of Fei Long getting totally dominated for the entire match then finally landing one lucky flying kick into st. fierce, rekka x3, Fei Long is able to get through defenses more easily but not able to do 70%+ combos off of one move that has become both safer and more effective. Also note that in most matches, Fei Long never actually lands that flying kick for the same reasons: it’s too hard to get in.
Fei Long was also able to “lock down” some characters with flying kick traps like Bison (Dictator) and Zangief, as well as giving other characters like Vega a really hard time once he made you block once. We’re definitely against easily repeated loops/traps, so that was another consideration.
The improved Rekkas are definitely a big help, and the super makes a huge difference IMO–much more like Balrog’s super now: when he has it charged, it fundamentally changes the match.
Overall Fei Long is a lot of fun, has some silly juggles, etc. He’s become less of a “get your one shot or you die” character and has become more overall effective.
I’m a little worried that invincible chicken wing could be as much if not more of an annoyance in the corner against down-charge characters and characters whose reversals don’t really help against chicken wing. I mean, 14 frames of invulnerability is a lot. Any way you guys could allay those fears? Why not just give the move a very small hitbox at Fei’s top-back area to make it possible for him to get around fireballs more easily while making it possible for people to knock him out of it if he does it up close?
And now that Fei’s offense is better, why make his flame kicks better for defensive purposes (ie not making Fei risk that the opponent won’t get knocked down when pianoing on wakeup). You’re making him considerably better on offense and balancing that by making him a little better on defense? How about making flame kick do less damage? This seems especially important considering that a flame kick plus two hits of chicken wing equaled a lot of damage in ST, and if that’s a combo now, it could be unnecessarily strong.
@Seth
I appreciate the answer, and you have convinced me. After playing Fei Long last night at home to test some things myself, I started to come to the same conclusions vs Bison (American version) and ‘Gief. I am still worried how he’ll deal with Balrog (American version) though. Maybe his new short flying kick will be used in a defensive way? After watching some youtube videos of Fei Long vs Dhalsim, I’m hoping the ease of execution of the flying kicks are going to give him enough chances to “get in” there to make that match balanced. I get the feeling that match up used to feel so lopsided because I couldn’t walk forward and get the flying kicks out in the same split second.
Your point on making him more well-rounded and less a “this is your one chance” makes perfect sense, and is quite a better way to make the game I think.
@UltraDavid
Don’t forget that they increased the vulnerability of the chicken wings in the air… so at least at the right distance you have an easier way of dealing with it. quoted “Flying Kicks have worse priority air-to-air during the first hit, so it’s easier to counter them with a jumping attack if you predict them.” This is a pretty big hit on Fei Long, but it sounds like these guys spent a lot of time getting him right… so it’s probably pretty balanced.
Also, the damage on the juggle is probably very reduced. I wouldn’t worry about it being damaging anything like his old combo since that was the point of their nerf.